How to Lead From Where You Are: A Conversation With Alvina Peat (Challenge #23)

How can you grow your leadership skills regardless of your job title? My guest, Alvin, Pete, and I will be talking about this in our first. Interview episode of the kind leadership challenge. It's a little longer than our usual episodes, but filled with a lot of value for anyone who wants to be more effective, humane, and collaborative in their work, building a better world. So with that, here's my conversation with Alvin. Welcome to the kind leadership challenge and our very first guest episode. Our guest today is Alvin Pete Alvin is a solopreneur communicator coach and masterful connector for more than 25 years. Thousands of men and women have experienced the transformational power of Alvin's personal and professional development workshops, retreats, coaching, and connections, Alvin. Founded Williams, Pete associates in 2002, with the mission to help women, men, and teams experience success in the workplace. LVNA is an expert in the field of interpersonal dynamics in the workplace. Organizations hire her for expertise and interactive approach to organizational learning and development. Her program served to increase employee engagement, motivation, and productivity, and her clients include the university of Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania conference for women maternity care coalition and Esperanza LVNA is also the creator of two exclusive initiatives for women, her empowerment, retreats, and resource. H E R dedicated to lifting women up from where they are, to where they deserve and desire to be. And TCB women, an influential network of solopreneurs who aspire to live a life of professional passion and purpose. Vena has motivated women nationally and internationally to remove the barriers that get in the way of living their most empowered life. Alvin donates a portion of the proceeds from her programs and her creative expertise to motivating young moms, a nonprofit organization, dedicated to helping young mothers become successful women by providing positive and professional mentors. Uh, what a resume. Thank you for joining us, Alvin. Thank you for having me. Oh, I am very excited to have this conversation today. I was listening to another podcast you did recently. And I learned that your path to leadership training and coaching was really very fascinating and had some twists and turns. Can you share how your journey started and the decisions that you made that took you from where you began to where you are? Well that's thank you for that, that question. And I like the way you posed it. It's when you said it was an interesting, like an interesting path with many twists and turns because it certainly was most people who know me, I've shared this story so many times I was what you would call a techie way back when I went to a vocational technical high school where I studied, uh, computer science and I then went on to college and continued to study in that field all the while, knowing that it really. I shouldn't say all the while, but for a good portion of my college years, I realized that it wasn't the path for me, but I stayed the course graduated with a technology degree. And my, um, first taste of technology or work with technology in corporate America was through mortgage finance. So I joined a mortgage company, a large mortgage company, well known I, my, one of my, um, dearest childhood friends was working for the company and she recommended me for an opening. It was an entry level position, and that's how I stepped into corporate America and mortgage finance. But after a few years, I realized that, the work that I was doing, it just wasn't filling my belly with that, that passion, that fire. and I, I decided that I needed to let somebody know that I had more to offer although I don't recommend going breaking the chain of command. I knew in this situation that I, I needed to speak to someone go around my immediate supervisor for many reasons. And I did mm-hmm I took a lot of strength and courage. Yeah. But I talked to the manager of the area and I said, Hey, listen, I don't know if you know this or not, but I have a degree in computer science and I know we don't have an internal, company that, that handles our, for lack of better term it, , stuff. But if ever we had, if ever there's an opportunity for me to use my talent in the area, my skills in the area, please think of me now. That was the turning point for me, because little did, I know the company had been working with an, a consulting firm to create a proprietary mortgage banking system. Oh my goodness. Yeah. And so I'm at home one evening, I get a call and it's my immediate supervisor. And she says to me, I hear the woman's name was Carol that I talked to and she said, mm-hmm, Carol tells me that you are interested in doing something beyond what you're doing in the department. And, you know, she's giving me this information. I'm on the other end of the phone thinking uhoh I'm in trouble. I went around her and now long story short. It turned out that she was calling me to see if I wanted to work on this project team they were putting together. And so with my strong technology background, I was brought on not just to test the system, but the, to then train others on the new system. Mm-hmm . And that is how I entered into training and development. And I stayed in technology training for many years after that. And then, one day as fate would have it, there was yet another friend who worked for that same organization who worked on the human resources side of the business. And she was leaving. And her boss said to her, you know, I, I was in a session with that woman, Alvin, , my name wasn't Pete, then Alvin Williams, do you happen to know her? And, my friend said, yeah, I do. I know her. And she said, well, you are leaving. And I would love to interview her for the position. Now, at that time, Sarah. I was so deeply seeped in technology that I could not see myself doing what they call the soft skills training. Mm-hmm because there was no definite, there was no. If I tell you to press a I'm 99.99, 9% sure. A is gonna show up on your screen. But when I start telling you, if you communicate more effectively with your team, that they will respond better, I can't prove that right, right away. Right. No direct line. So I was like, no way, I don't want any parts of the , but this, this person who turned out to be one of my dearest friends after many years just pursued me. And she was like, no, you know, You have the strong platform skills we're looking for and I want you on our team and it'll come the soft skills that you need for this position will come. I will mentor you. So she convinced me, I stepped out of my comfort zone. I said, yes. And that really changed the course of my life, because I not only learned how to deliver the programs and to facilitate from a different perspective, more about the emotional intelligence than mm-hmm the technical intelligence. Um, but it also changed me. I learned more about myself and the person that's sitting in front of you or talking to you today is a result of, of that early. Career choice that I made to do the, and I'm doing air quotes, the soft skills training. And the reason I say air quote, put it in air quotes is because we call it soft skills. But as you know, from your work with leaders, it's the most difficult. They are. The, um, interpersonal skills are the most difficult skills to master. Yeah, that's something we talk about so much on this show. And in my experience too, I had a PhD in higher ed leadership and you know, many years of experience at an academic library. And when I, and, and had been in lower level leadership positions, but when I stepped into my first role as Dean, it was just a whole new world. And. You can have all the training in the world, but truly your mentor was right. You learned this by doing. And, um, that's a big part of why I've started this podcast in this program to help leaders who are making that same journey that you made. And, and I think it also touches on kind of our theme today of leading where you are, whatever, you know, whatever your ti job title is and whatever your role is. Mm-hmm . I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, and, and your story really does highlight the fact that you don't have to have a formal position to be. A leader, as long as you're, you know, approaching your challenges from the mindset of affecting change and helping your people grow, are there common stumbling blocks in your work that you see people struggle with when they're trying to lead from where they are? I think that the stumbling blocks are different for everyone, right? But I think that one of the things that I notice is, especially for women and I, I emphasize this because, you know, that is truly my lane leadership development for women. Yeah. And, and I think whenever I'm working with women, the one stumbling block from at, at all levels is. Not asking for help and not. Yes. Yes. I think that is the biggest stumbling block I hear. Um, or I see, you know, for women and they don't necessarily see it themselves. They , they, or I should say we women. We often think, well, we have to do it. We have to now we're givers. We will give as much help you, you, I, you know, I can, I coach many women, as I said, at various levels and they are all givers. There's nothing that a colleague won't ask or one of their direct reports won't ask, or even if they are individual contributors, but definitely, um, are, are, have those leadership qualities, they're givers. But when it comes to asking for help or even accepting help, when it is offered, they are quick to say, no, no, no, I got it. I can do it. And I was recently, um, Talking with a, a, a, a client. And she was giving me a list of things that she wanted to accomplish before our next coaching call. And we, in summary, I was giving back to her what I heard. And I simply said to her, the, the one homework assignment I'm going to give you is to say yes to help. And she got really quiet on the phone. And this is one of the, the highest achieving clients that I have. She's a gift to her organization. And she's just a high achieve, you know, a high achiever, that's it, she's a doer. She's gonna get it done. And she's a great leader. And I could hear her this particular call. You know, really drowning in all that she had to do. And I heard several times I heard her say, you know, and I don't, I don't wanna ask anyone for help and I don't wanna. And so, and so asked me if, how they could help me. And I told them I didn't want their help and not in that Cru of a way. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so it just, I kept hearing it over and over again. And so my comment was say yes to help and that's where we left it. And so I hear that a, a lot that we that's a stumbling block that we won't ask for help or, and we won't accept it when it's offered and I'm guilty of it too. Me too. Me too. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm guilty of it in my personal and professional life. So it's not something that I've conquered. It's something that I have to step back sometimes and say, okay, why won't you accept help here? Mm-hmm what is what's going on? So I think that's, you asked me the biggest, I'm gonna use Boulder, but, um, I also think that it's the biggest opportunity for, I recognize that it's a Boulder, but chip away at it, you know? And when you start to chip away at something, you start to question even slow down and step back and say, okay, we're never going to say yes to all offers of help, but when you can step back and say, so why what's my resistance in this case? What's the best case scenario here and, and just play with it until you get more and more comfortable with saying yes. yeah, it sounds counterintuitive. What is one of the best ways to lead from where you are ask for help. But, but in some ways I almost wonder if that's kind of the essence of leadership because you're trying to work together with other people and create something where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. And especially in scenarios, like a lot of, uh, our listeners are in today. Most of them are leaders in libraries and education, and those are challenging places to be working in right now. And I think the ability to set aside. I agree. The ability to like set aside your pride and ask for help is an important thing. And I think there's an important power in that vulnerability. Mm-hmm mm-hmm yeah, I think there is. We hear so much these days about self-care right. Mm-hmm take care of yourself, self care, especially during these last few years that we've had it's critical. Think of asking for help as self-care very true. Yeah. You're not going to be accepted from everyone because everyone can help you to the degree that you, you needed or wanted, or you may not like the way they do it. You know, I get all of that. Yeah. I think of it as this is self. This is, this is taking this off of my plate and by my plate, I mean, my mental plate. right. I'm taking this off of my plate and I'm entrusting it to Sarah because I know she can get it done. She offered to help. She asked me how she could help me. I know she's an expert or has a really good handle on X, Y, and Z. Let me offer, let me take her up on her offer. It's a way that I'm taking care of myself in this situation and you know what, Sarah's gonna come to me and we're gonna reciprocate, you know, it's not, I don't have to worry about that one day. She'll ask me for help and I'll be able to help her. Yeah. And, and I talk a lot about trust in. You know, from time to time. And it seems like, like that's kind of what you're talking about here is, is that in asking for and receiving help, you're establishing, you know, the foundations of a trusting relationship that you can then build on to be able to do bigger and better things. And, you know, I'm glad you used that reminded me because I have a dear friend who, if I remember one time asking her something about how could she trust someone after they let her down. And she said, I said, how can you ever trust again? You know, that person let you down. And, and, and, and she said to me, but I trust myself. And I said, what? And she said, I trust myself. And by that, I mean, I trust my intuition. I trust that I'm gonna pick the right resource, that the person that I hand something off to, I trust that I'm a good judge of character and that that person will get the job done. And so when we talk about trust, it's just not trusting the person on the other end that you are handing something off to, or you are, you know, um, ask allowing to help you, but you're trusting your own ability to identify the person or people that will be resourceful to you. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, you're. Yeah. There's, there's a trust in yourself as well. And I think that's, yeah, that's a very important thing for us to keep in in mind. And yeah, I think it's something that gets glossed over when we talk about, about trust. You're absolutely right. And you know, that makes me think of something else you said in another one of your, uh, previous podcast appearances. I was listening to getting ready for this, our conversation today, and that is the sister squad, by the way. I love that phrase. That is awesome. and, and, you know, that made me really think about the, um, sisters and brothers in my career, in my life, not just in my work career, but I think of my mentors in podcasting, who I wouldn't be doing this without, some wonderful mentors who I've worked with over the past several years. Um, you know, the people I, I was in my PhD cohort with, we were all full time, higher ed professionals who were like. Doing this doing a doctorate on the side, cuz we were all like, I think low lowkey and insane. But we got through it and we got through the program cuz we were all together. And in those experiences, I really learned the power of, of having that, that sister squad. How, um, for somebody who maybe wants to be more intentional about developing their, their sister squad and building those connections of trust, what that's do you have about somebody who's think about how can I identify those people or how can I cultivate the cultivate those relationships? Hmm. So, you know, it's, again, it looks different for, for everyone. And now in the age of social media, we have so many tools. So for instance, I started. A group called TCB women. Mm-hmm when I started that group in 2019, it was to give you an example. And maybe someone might, might like this idea as an independent training and development consulted or contract worker, you spend most of your time alone. Yeah. Low. Yeah, except for when you're in a client's office or, you know, or doing a public workshop or program. And so after years and years I've been doing this for many years, since 2002, I said, okay, it's time for me to create, uh, a work group, a group of people who come together from the training and development and coaching space that are looking to connect. I simply reached out to a colleague who had left her company and was going off on her own. And I said, I'm thinking about starting this group. Would you join me? And I started TCB with one person. We met at a local cafe, and then that one person grew into another person and another person and people started finding me either through meetup, LinkedIn, word of mouth, mainly word of mouth, you know, referrals, C COVID hit. And we all went our separate ways. Yep. I sent out a message and I said, would you like to meet virtually? Well, once I opened that up, I have people calling in from The Bahamas. I have people calling in from all over who now we have this group virtually meeting over zoom every month out of that, one of the women said. You guys are so talented. We have so much talent in this group. Let's do a conference and we did a, a conference with entrepreneurs. Um, it was called it's our term conference little did I know this, my sister circle that I called them, but the TCB members, the original group of members behind my back're talking about making this, what they called a TCB conference. And their thought was you created TCB. If it wasn't for your, your vision, we wouldn't know each other. We want to, you know, give you props. We wanna put you out there. And so, um, one of the members said to me, and what are you gonna do after the conference? Where are all these women gonna go? Are you gonna expand TCB to, to be beyond just training and development folks? And I did, and it, and I, I, I am, I didn't embrace it right away. Mm-hmm, got on my comfort zone. I had one vision in mind for two CD, but. I was willing to explore after some or some, some gentle nudging from my, my sister circle to give it a try. And so TCB became train, um, taking care of business women. Yeah. Some women. I share that story with you to say that one piece of advice I would give to a woman who's feeling maybe isolated alone. They don't get me at work, starts small, a simple walk and talk, a simple cup of coffee, you know, just to, to start to connect and get to know an individual outside of your work, your direct, your immediate area, or your immediate, um, even line of business. You'll be surprised how people who may may seen. So different than what you're doing, network may be, be so different than what you're doing. Can somehow impact you and you both can help each other. Now, again, my lane is women's leadership and empowerment. However, I love my brothers. Mm-hmm I am. And, and so, you know, for years and years and years, I work with both male and female and I still do when I'm doing client work, you know, it's, it's co-educational right. But. TCB is, is strictly for female. So entrepreneurs and her is for, is obviously for women, um, who are looking to get unstuck and live their best life. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And I think it's great, whether it's these informal, Hey, you know, let's go get a cup of coffee and hang out or, or something more formal and structured, like what you've created with TCB women and with her. Um, you know, I, I think that it is critical that. Especially those of us in informal leadership positions, because you know, the, the, the whole, the whole lonely at the top cliche thing is a cliche, cuz there's some truth there because, um, you, at that point there are fewer people who can really kind of understand what you're going through in your struggles and your pros and cons and, and having, and intentionally creating that network is so critical. I mean, it's why I call what I'm doing, the kind leadership Guild, because it's about it's it's, I think it's about that same thing ultimately is about connection and finding people that you can, you know, partner with. And I think that networking in general now is, you know, throw the word is thrown out and people, you know, we talk about it easily, but back when I began, um, really networking people, didn't. Know what it was. They thought it was just a waste of time. Mm-hmm, , I'm uncomfortable there. You're making all these relationships, but it's disingenuous and you, but you, you don't know how important it is to your career and your professional, um, development until you really start to do it and you start to learn and grow and you see like, wow, this, this came from my network. You know, this came from my sister circle and it has legs. So one example I'd like to give you is one of the women that joined our TCB, um, group, she has, she and her husband started a, an escape room business. Mm-hmm. That is so far from anything that I would ever see myself doing. Right? Mm-hmm training and development. I get a call a few months ago and someone says, um, could you do a team building for me? You were referred to me. And, and I said, sure, let let's hear what's going on. And as she's telling me some of the issues that her team is having, I'm like, okay, would you consider doing as a part of your team building an escape room experience to be the experiential portion of it while we, while I observe their communication skills within. The escape room experience. And then we have a part two where we really dive, take a dive, deep dive into the communication styles. She, she was intrigued. I quit called my TCB member and I said, would you consider blah, blah, blah. And so here, we're about to do our second collaborative event together. And in the process of planning the third, who would've thought that out of my TCB sister circle that I would've ever have even, you know, found this, this, this opportunity. Right? Yeah. And so when people PPO away the idea of a sister circle or let's broaden and just say a network mm-hmm I say you don't know what you're missing. You know, autonomy is wonderful. I work solo. I know it. I love it. But too much of anything is not everything right too. It won't get you everything you need. So you have to collaborate. You have to have a circle of trusted people in your corner in order to, to thrive and to move your career along. That's how I feel. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I was just sitting here, as you were talking about this, reflecting about the fact that you and I would not have connected without, you know, now a similar networking experience because, um, you know, I was going to, I had that networking for women lunch at my place of work. And I was looking at the calendar going, ah, it's a Saturday, it's nice out. I was like, I'll go. Some other people from work will be there. I'll find them. We'll chit chat. And then you and I wind up at the same table and we just start talking and start clicking and, and your areas of it, my interest and mine are just so overlapping. And, you know, we hopped on zoom and got to know each other better. And here we are. Yes, yes. And thank you for reminding me of that, because that's really true because I was feeling the same way. I don't know if you know, but initially I was going to be one of the presenters at they event, right. Last minute. I got not the last minute in, you know, a few weeks prior. I heard we were changing direction, but I was still invited to come to the luncheon. And the first thing I thought of was, Hmm, it's a Saturday. I could go visit my daughter. I could do, you know, hang out with my sister, whatever. I, I don't know. And then something said, but you know what? You get a chance to meet some new people and here's some new information. And so sometimes again, we just have to step out of our comfort zone. And if, if, if creating a network or a sister circle is something that you, if anyone listening is saying, I could never do that. Then that's the thing to do, cuz it's gonna take you out of your comfort zone. Just try it, try it at your in case. So true. You know, and speaking of comfort zones and leading from where you are, um, that kind of gets me to thinking about those of us who are in formal leadership positions. I have people who are already leaders who listen to this show. I also have aspiring leaders. How can those of us who, are in those leadership positions already, who are in positions, kind of like that mentor was who helped you along early in your career? How can we have the, sometimes it's courage to step back and make space so that we can allow our up and coming leaders within our organizations to shine? How can we identify those people and how can we support those people while still giving them the space they need to grow? Oh, wow. So I think those, those folks that simply stand out in the crowd leaders, you all know them. Mm-hmm know the person, he or she has it. They, they they're motivated. They're engaged. They are. Um, I like to say they're demonstrating leadership qualities, to the extent that is warranted in their current position. You can trust them to get the job done. They're accountable. There's certain checkoffs that you have, right. When you're looking and you say, this person has it, she, he, or she stands out. I feel as a leader, you have access to information that your team doesn't have. You are the. I, I refer to Carol, you're the Carol in the room when Alvin's not in the room. Right? So, you know, what's coming down the pike and you say, Hey person, X on my team has expressed interest in this. Or they show a particular expertise in this. I think they would be a good fit for this. Why don't let run it by them and see, because the non-leader the individual contributors and even the, the, the novice leaders, your team leads your assistant manager, mm-hmm advisors. They're counting on you into some degree to have the pulse of the organization, cuz you have information. As I said that they don't have. And so helping them by simply saying, listen, this is coming down the pike. I think it would be a good fit. It's aligned with what you and I have talked about. As far as your development is concerned. You wanna give it a try? You want to give it a. You know, I've got your back. We can. So, and a perfect example of that is early. I told you about the, the person that pursued me and said, I want you on my team. And behind the scenes, I did, I was not aware of the fact that there was special programming coming down the pike from Washington, DC, the, um, um, the hub of mortgage finance mm-hmm , and they were looking for professionals that met certain criteria within different mortgage banking industries to be a part of this leadership program and to become certified mortgage bankers. And I didn't know that well, my, my manager came to me and. I think this would be an excellent opportunity. You would expand your network. You could possibly work in Washington one day for this organization. You never know why don't you give it a try? My first reaction was what . Here I go again. No. Now, listen, you took away from technology training. You wooed me over here. I'm finally, I'm finally in my lane with, you know, interpersonal dynamics. And now you're trying to put me into this mortgage finance. Can I just say that I did it. I built a strong network. Mm-hmm I did at the end of my career, I began working in Washington DC for that very organization and I do believe had it not been for me, for my leader, believing in me being the person in the room that says I have an excellent candidate for this program. I would not be sitting here talking to you today. I believe there was all divine now. And, and so you as a leader and all of those leaders that are listening, I have, I can't stress enough. We rely on you to have our backs. You're in the room. We rely on you to get to know us, to really get to know us, not just how, what work, not just in, in, in regards to the work that we have to do for you, but what are our future dreams? Yeah. Our goal aspirations that, and I think once you know that about your employees, you are in a better position to help them grow because your job is to launch them into another career. Like move them on, not to hold them. Oh, I hold the turnover. I don't, but no. Because it's there. You want people on your team, that's achievers that want to grow and learn and, and, and move on. Cuz then you look good as a leader as well, you know? Yeah. That's, that's, that's my, my advice. Know your people, lift your people up, shine the light on your people. Don't be afraid. Don't hold them. Don't, you know, don't hold them to yourselves, push them out there, encourage them, support them. Exactly. If we, as leaders want to have the strongest, healthiest, most collaborative teams, that's a part of it. That's, you know, that's developing them and also, you know, encouraging them to spread their wings. Yes. Yes. And whatever that ends up looking like. Yes. Yeah. That is so true., I know we're kind of coming in towards the end of our time together. Unfortunately, I think there may be future conversations that I, I we've had so many interesting sidebars that could be whole interviews in themselves, but I wanna let people know that you have a couple of really cool projects on the horizon. And, uh, if you would like to kind of share what you've got, uh, going on, both for us, uh, folks who li happen to live in the Philadelphia area and, uh, also for anybody else who is interested in learning more about what you do. Oh, thank you for letting me, uh, give myself a shout out. Um, so I do, I have an event on Saturday, July 30th, the her empowerment retreat, this year's theme is living your best life. And so the it's a full day retreat, eight 30 to four 30 and all the details location it's in, uh, the Horsham area. But the address and the location are all on my website, which I'll give you in a minute. Um, so the retreat is, as I said, a full day retreat theme, living your best life of what I'm even more excited about is Saturday, July 30th is international friendship day. That's a real thing. I love it. Yeah. And so I had in the back of my mind that one day I was going to do this international women's event and on friendship day, and then I would draw women from all over to come to this event. So what I, what I'm going to do, what I am promoting for the upcoming, the first one is to just encourage people, to bring a friend and spend the day. Connecting networking and receiving tools for living your best life, whether it's personal or professional, it's a day full of fun. It's, it's, it's one of my, um, favorite events to, to host the, the retreat. And so that's Saturday, July 30th, and then in the fall. And I have to confirm the date. So I won't give the dates now, but in the fall of this year, I will be having my first public cohorted emerging leader program. Um, I had a, I had an onsite event. I, I, uh, piloted it in 2020, so this will be a public offering, uh, in the Philadelphia area. And it's a multi-day cohorted experience and out the details will be up on my website shortly. And then finally, my book is coming out and, uh, that'll be out in early fall and it's called take control of your career. So. I am really excited about that. And all of this information can be found on my website at Williams, Pete asus.com. Wonderful. And we will have all those links to all those goodies of the show notes and librarians, especially those of you in acquisitions, keep in mind that book's coming out. And, uh, , I mean, these all sound like wonderful projects. And I think a lot of our listeners and I knew no, we have some listeners in the Philly area, so hopefully, uh, some of you will take advantage in all these great opportunities. So, um, is there a good way that folks can stay up to date with you? Uh, you know, newsletter, socials, any of that good stuff? LinkedIn is my go to social media. I'm on all the Google, my business, Facebook, Instagram, but LinkedIn is the one where I am probably the most active. I also, if anyone wants to email me directly to be put on my email list, they can email me at Alvin at Williams, Pete sos.com. And I will. And just in the subject say, add me to your, your email list. And that is for the her community. And if there are any, so entrepreneurs out there, I don't care where, what area you're in. And you are curious about TCB women. We meet the second Tuesday of every month over zoom and the again, email me. And I will certainly add you to the TCB, uh, email list. And, and I love for you to be a part of. Okay. Wonderful. Thanks so much for your time today, Alvin, it's been great chatting with you again, and I think you've provided some great value for all of us. This we work to be, you know, be better leaders and build a better world in the process. Thank you. This week I'll be digging deeper into some key moments from my conversation with Alvin Pete. If you wanna continue the conversation, just head to kind leadership, challenge.com/community and sign. Thanks for listening and for taking action to become a kinder leader. If you found this week's episode, insightful, give the show a rating or review or even better tell your fellow leaders never doubt that day by day. You are building a better world, even if you can't see it yet. So until next time, stay kind now.